(3.x) Reworking Attack/Damage

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:39 pm

I got to tinkering this morning .....

Proposal: "Threshold Damage"
- When you make an attack, the difference between your attack roll and your opponent's AC (provided you hit, of course) gets added to damage.
For example, if your opponent has an AC of 20, and you get a 25 on your attack, you deal (standard damage)+5.
I don't think that I would have a problem with this damage multiplying on a crit.

*effect on Power Attack*:
without further modification, this makes Power Attacking with a 1-handed wpn completely worthless, and PAing with a 2-handed wpn only half as effective (relatively speaking). Thus, Power Attack would necessarily need a rewrite (because just eliminating it would just be utter nonsense).

Power Attack rewrite (i.e., from scratch):
- proposal #1: as written, except increase returns: 1-handed = 2:1 ; 2-handed = 3:1
- proposal #2: subtract a # from your attack roll (max = SRT mod); extra damage from STR bonus is x1.5 (for 1-handed), or x2 (for 2-handed)
- proposal #3: <something better that I'm not thinking of right now>

The more I think on this, the more I realize that this isn't quite suited to 3.x. I'm leaving it up for posterity; but spoilering it to keep it out of the way.

How about I just give my mission statement:

Mission Statement: Create a mechanic that models Margin of Success, that is more granular than "critical hit" (but that can coexist with crits).

Thoughts? Questions/Comments/Concerns?

Thanks.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:45 pm

So, what does this add to the game, exactly? I mean, when I stop and think about the things that could be better in the D&D game I'm running right now, I don't think "I wonder if there's any way I could slow individual rounds of combat down without affecting the tactical landscape in any significant way?"

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:55 pm

It was just a different way of conceptualizing the attack/damage relationship.

as to the time issue .... it'd be an extra 2-3 seconds (literally) for each attack; the goal would be to better satisfy the more simulationist-minded individuals.

Really just spitballing
(plus, "an idle mind is the devil's playground")

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:22 am

I don't like adding free damage, especially since this helps ranged attackers more and they don't need the help in tome.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:23 am

Yeah, this is a cool boost to beatsticks and archers and especially crossbow user. As long as you stipulate that this extra damage doesn't apply to stupid shit like ability penalties/damage/drain and negative levels and energy drain, it would be a fine thing.

Expect everyone to whore armor class, and for closet troll to be even more terrifying, and uber-chargers and TWF to be more uber.

And for evokers to cry themselves asleep even harder.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:33 am

...You Lost Me wrote:I don't like adding free damage, especially since this helps ranged attackers more and they don't need the help in tome.

What about sans Tome?

Hicks wrote:As long as you stipulate that this extra damage doesn't apply to stupid shit like ability penalties/damage/drain and negative levels and energy drain, it would be a fine thing.

Just straight HP damage from weapons (and maybe weapon-like spells).

Expect everyone to whore armor class, and for closet troll to be even more terrifying, and uber-chargers and TWF to be more uber.

And for evokers to cry themselves asleep even harder.

I'm not sure I necessarily have a problem with any of that.
That being said, which Power Attack rewrite seems to be the best fit?

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:48 am

Looks fine, though it probably makes levels 1 and 2 a good bit more lethal. I don't think I'd multiply bonus damage on crit though.

As for PA, this adjustment is basically giving everyone a free, automatically maximized, retroactive PA with every weapon. Adding back in the ability to squeeze a few more points of damage out by betting against yourself and your new scaling damage pool is weird and encourages weird choices. You are less likely to hit in exchange for a pretty small boost in damage, and I'm not even sure that boosts your average damage output in non-edge cases since you can't assume people won't whore AC in this system.

So here's a new proposal 3 for you: Power Attack dies in a fire. Every feat that used it as a prereq no longer does that. A new feat, "Powerful Attack" is added that does this stuff: "When you hit a foe with a two-handed weapon wielded in both hands, you deal 3 times your threshold damage." Yes, that is an always on damage bonus that doesn't require you to sacrifice your attack bonus.

Why 3 times? TWF is going to be eating your face in with this threshold damage thing. It's a free static bonus to every hit exactly the sort that they want. Doubling 2HF threshold just matches the TWF output and isn't exactly worth caring about, so we triple it instead. The always on thing is there to prevent people from falling into a trap option and because it's easy to use with your existing threshold stuff.

If you want TWF or SnB to consider taking this new PA for some reason (and I really can't think of any), you wouldn't want to give them more than 1.5x threshold damage with a 1 handed weapon just for bonus parity. But I don't recommend it.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:55 am

Adds nothing, takes time and resources and is fiddly. Pass.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:41 pm

What if you also made damage a flat number (based on average), so your d20 attack roll is the only determination of damage?

the time saved from rolling separately for damage balances with the time spent on adding up the margin of success to your d20 attack roll.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:42 pm

Seen it in various games, never really liked the effect.

Basically, saves you having hit and damage mods, because all your hit mods are already damage mods (give or take). Power attack still works because you add an extra multiple and use it like normal. Option 1 up there. Even stuff like Weapon finesse can be +Dex to hit and -Dex to damage.

Oh, and you get how super-strong characters can sometimes fail to one-hit a goblin. 8[

Meanwhile, it costs you doing subtraction every single hit, like you're a fan of THAC0 or something. Hmm, you could use a low-is-good attack dice method and add the number on the d20 to your damage (so high rolls are what misses). That would at least be reasonably functional. Hmm, that would be AC counting down from 10, and you rolling equal-to-or-under their AC + your attack mods. Not so good after all. Never mind.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:14 am

Thanks for the input so far.
The more I think on this, the more I realize that this isn't quite suited to 3.x.
Hell, the only reason I fiddled with PA was simply because of the fact that the proposed mechanic basically invalidated it. I do very much like the idea of losing accuracy for more "umph" (in which case PA fits the bill).

So, how about I just give my mission statement:

Mission Statement: Create a mechanic that models Margin of Success, that is more granular than "critical hit" (but that can coexist with crits).

Thoughts? Is this even properly workable in 3.x?

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:49 am

The damage roll. That's what it's for. That's why it's a separate die to the attack roll, so we have a very simple margin of success mechanic that is independently variable from skill and as granular as you want it to be. Skills should make more use of damage-like success dice.

More highly variable success rolls can be had by changing all the flat damage mods into dice. So Weapon Spec is +1d6 damage, as are Ranger Enemies, Power Attack, etc.

Counting successes works when you're rolling lots of d6 or something, you can think of iterative attacks as being a margin of success mechanic too (counting hits).

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:05 am

Okay, so changing static damage mods to variable would indeed address one of the issues I'm having. (seeing as how the weapon die becomes essentially meaningless by, what, level 10?)
Hmm .... that still leaves a bit of a disconnect for me.
I'm gonna let that percolate for a day or 2.

EDIT: in the meantime, I think I might tinker around with some sort of scaling weapon die thingy.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:30 am

wotmaniac wrote:Mission Statement: Create a mechanic that models Margin of Success, that is more granular than "critical hit" (but that can coexist with crits).

Thoughts? Is this even properly workable in 3.x?

If you want normal crits + margin of success... I got nothing.

You can do stuff with "crits" where the crit is based on the margin of success though.
[*]If you toss the idea of a crit range and a crit modifier you can go with a multiplier based on margin of hit instead. Hitting by 0-3 is normal damage, hitting by 4-6 is double damage, and hitting by 7+ is triple damage or whatever.
[*]If you want to keeping the idea of crit ranges and crit mods means, different weapons have different success ranges and different multipliers within those ranges. So a rapier might have the above numbers, while a greatsword deals double in this hit by 5-8 range and triple in the 9+ range, and a battleaxe deals triple in the hit by 6-10 range and quadruple in the 11+ range. If this looks like a cluster fuck, it's because it probably is. I haven't even thought about these numbers other than to toss them up as examples.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:34 am

You've got to be careful which dice you try and use for which effect. I helped someone out with a problem they were having with modelling Zombies and Vampires as something a skilled girl can one-shot with a stake but any size gun can't easily kill without great aim. That sort of Zombie is a low-hp critter with a high AC, in D&D, even though they've traditionally been modeled as the reverse. Replaced a lot of rules with a tweak to the monsters.

Like, 3e gives out "precision" effects not as riders on a relatively high hit, but as high damage in cases where precision makes sense: vulnerable opponent distracted and attacker not so, specifically so it could work for characters without high attack mods. Oh, and also to fencers, so they suck less.

Hell, the Power Attack mechanic makes more sense as modelling a precision strike. A brute force attack should really be modeled by reducing damage (by a flat amount, so it works well for strong guys with big hammers) and increase the attack mod. Cancels any precision damage, of course. Bla bla bla.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:47 am

Okay, I've finally concluded that, in absence of some sort of revolutionary eureka moment, I must admit defeat in this.

The more I try to muck with it, the more it starts to look like goddamned Rolemaster -- and fuck that shit.

Oh well -- thanks anyway, guys.

The Gaming Den

(3.x) Reworking Attack/Damage

(3.x) Reworking Attack/Damage

Re: (3.x) Reworking Attack/Damage